I’ve been taking some time and quietude from the blog front recently, even though we’ve been to two fantastic cons since I last updated, and I have more than a few interesting stories to tell.
There is a good bit of IRL drama going on here, and that is what I plan to continue to commit myself to working on over the blog right now. I love Ellie deeply, and need to be with her throughout this time. I’ll post again with more information relatively soon.
There is an awesome thing going on in our lives that we haven’t been able to string more than three words together about since it started.
Ariel and Michael.
*le sigh*
They offered us a place to stay when we came to their town for a convention. The short version of the story is that we only made it to one day of the con. We were cuddling, playing, exploring, and fucking all weekend and we couldn’t care less about the rest of the world.
By the time we left their house at the end of the weekend gas prices had dropped outside by quite a lot. We took this as a good omen since we planned on spending a lot of money on gas to come see them over and over again.
Last weekend was the third trip out to see them, and an impromptu one. We have been falling for them hard and fast and we couldn’t bear missing them any longer, so we cut out of some of our piddling responsibilities mid-week and went to spend the extended weekend with them.
It’s a strange, wonderful dynamic that has formed around the couples. Ellie and I met them as a well formed couple of three years, and their relationship is similar to ours. As we’ve got to know each other better we’ve seen that there are interesting sexual cross-attractions. All of us are in love with each other, so that’s a good first step.
Michael and I have a very special, exploratory sexual relationship. We are testing new boundaries and limits and exploring anal play. I’m really enjoying the sounds he makes when he experiences something new.
That’s not to say he hasn’t taught both of us a good bit. On our first weekend he showed us their Violet Wand (which we are now very much in love with as well). He started by giving me an electrical massage, and then some stronger sensation play with some of the lovely attachments. The ladies looked on through the blacklit room and played with each other while he worked on me.
Ariel and I had been talking online for several months and had already started to develop a pretty strong friendship. When we met we were quickly able to incorporate that friendship into the relationship that we were building. Every time we saw Ellie and Michael play we’d look at each other and giggle, it made us so happy to see them developing that bond.
The concept of a four-way relationship was not entirely foreign to any of us. Ellie and I have talked about how we feel that no one person can be everything to everyone, especially with responsibilities and constraints on their time. My fantasy has been to live in a multi-partner household where everyone is on equal footing (i.e. no 24/7 D/s or M/s dynamic). This relationship gives me hope that my dream family can exist and prosper.
—
Ellie and I have synthesized down a couple rules of poly dating from all the workshops we’ve been to in the last couple years which I’d love to share:
“Never stick your dick in a crazy”
This, to me, is short for “Don’t get involved with a potential partner until you know them well enough to tell if they are crazy or not”. This is really fantastic advice for anyone with or without the requisite genitalia. Check potential partners for crazy before getting sexually involved with them. I know it can be tough to spot at first, but once you’ve seen a few examples of “crazy” you start to be able to spot it pretty easily.
Avoid, “Relationship is broken, add more people” mentality.
Make sure the relationship you are in is sound before you go looking for partners. I know how strong the urge can be to add to a relationship that is having problems. For some strange reason it is a natural response for most people to try to sabotage their relationships by bringing in a new partner. Ariel and Michael sat us down and talked about their relationship history and made us aware that they were in a good place to start a relationship with us.
“Slow the fuck down”
New relationship energy tends to make things happen very, very fast. Although it’s fun to do impulsive things with your new loves, recognizing that you have responsibilities is a major factor. At least for me with an addictive personality, I have to hold myself back at times. Ellie and I have this in common, and I’m pretty sure Ariel is the same way as well. So restraint has been the key order of the day many, many times so far, but it’s working out fantastically.
—
To paraphrase The Magnetic Fields, “We’re so in love with you both, it’s like we’re on the moon, we can hardly breathe, but we feel lighter.”
..That reminds me that I need to post about breath play. I guess I’ll save that for next time.
I don’t do memes.. generally. But since I was tagged by Jack, who I want to forge a friendship with (get in line, buddy), I figured this would give me a chance to let him know just how similar I think we are.
1. I like all kinds of girls. I have found that this is often hard for girls to understand. I like big girls and little girls, so when I was dating a relatively skinny girl and she found out I had some chubby girl porn on my computer she though “I must be fat, that’s why you like me!” and when I was dating a chubby girl and commented on a tiny girl being hot she said “If you like girls like that, why are you dating me?”. Also I have been with girls as tall as 6′ and as short as 4′11″. Even my constant of “glasses and big tits” hasn’t held up lately.
2. I have no piercing or tattoos. I dated someone for a long time who was covered in tattoos (10!) and I really love the look of thick black and red ink on skin. I have a few tattoos I want to get, but I am waiting until I am sure (i.e. it has been about 5 years of me thinking about it and I still haven’t done it.)
3. People seem to inherently trust me. If often makes me feel like I need to be extra careful. People are constantly telling me secrets. I kind of love being the keeper of secrets.
4. I had a criminal youth. I was a compulsive liar as a kid. My head still thinks like that sometimes, but I keep it very much under control. I try to be almost annoyingly honest now. Truth still has a ring of novelty on my tongue.
5. The thing I hate most in life is probably corporate chain restaurants.
6. Almost all of my close friends are working on Masters or PhDs and are on some form of psycho-pharmacology. I will probably never go for any sort of higher degree and I’ve never been in therapy.
7. I took ballet as a child, as well as tap dancing.
Now… strike the “criminal youth”, change ballet & tap dancing to clogging, and strike #6 but keep the rest, and those facts all fit me too.
—
Here are the rules:
* Link to your tagger and list these rules on your blog.
* Share 7 facts about yourself on your blog - some random, some weird.
* Tag 7 people at the end of your post by leaving their names as well as links to their blog.
* Let them know they have been tagged by leaving a comment on their blog.
My 7 Facts:
1. When I was a child my fantasy future was to live in a big house with several other loving men and women all sharing responsibilities and partners.
2. My sister (almost 3 years younger than me) and I wrestled constantly, and until I was 15 she almost always won.
3. While I was in an open relationship with my High School beau (and considered myself gay), I realized that most of my reasons for being involved in a homosexual relationship were “daddy worship” issues. Once I started working on those my attraction to men diminished but did not disappear. Now I’m quite picky and shy when it comes to datable guys.
4. “Jay” is only a facet of my personality, I’m quite a bit more shy than I come across to most people through my blog. I think people also assume that I’ve had quite a few sexual partners because I write so openly about sex. However, like Ellie, I was a late bloomer. I had only 4 sex partners until 2 years ago. While I ‘play’ with a decent number of people in a BDSM context and love to make-out, there isn’t a gratuitous amount of sex outside of my relationship with Ellie.
5. I have a whole box of things that Ellie loves about me, and I look inside of it all the time.
6. I’m a pretty big nerd, and I have about the dorkiest sense of humor. My step-dad infected me with his love of puns. Luckily, the people I tend to have a good connection with can tolerate my turbopuns.
7. In Middle School I got first place in a karate tournament. I was pretty proud of my Shorei Goju Ryu skillz :)
I tag:
1. Sexual Adventurer because she needs another thing to have no time to write about.
2. I need to find out more about StacyCat69 since she’s going to be staying with us for a few days, soon.
3. Wendy, because her smile and her colorful giant cock turn me on.
4. Bear because everything that comes out of his mouth is gold. (I wonder what will happen when/if I ever kiss him?)
5. Ellie, I love that girl.
6. My favorite Naughty Kitty, because with this kitty the only thing you can expect is that it will be smokin’.
7. Lastly and randomly, Bob, because really, Who Doesn’t Like Big Wet Boobs?
Apologies first. It took me a lot longer than I thought it would to start writing this second post. I’d say it won’t happen again, but I’d be lying. Since I’m not wearing pants I don’t think I want to know what would be on fire if I lied right now.
I’m going to break it down to a couple of my camp crushes.
Lia - I already mentioned her smile. Gorgeous. Her voice was like a tiny crystal bell. But I’d bet anything that when she’s feeling toppy she’s a real firecracker. I wanted to get to know her a lot better, but seeing her shyness made me shy too for some odd reason (in addition to being a huge turn-on). She was in a really interesting family situation at camp, and although I was fascinated by it I couldn’t bring myself to ask her about it to find out if it would be okay to play with her.
Stars - We met for the first time at the Harry Potter meet-up (if that gives you any idea of what kind of nerds we are). After that we bonded with pool-noodle combat. Fun times. I wanted to take her every way possible, but again my shyness got ahold of me. I was just so happy to be making a physical connection with her, wrestling and thrashing around in the water. We’ve made some tentative plans to see each other in a couple of months. Too bad by the time we meet again it’ll be too cold for outdoor sex.
Nina - I met Nina, Duckie, and Pete at the pool by random chance. I had been enjoying hanging out in this giant floating green raft all weekend, and when I found it this day Duckie and Nina were already in it. I asked permission to board their vessel (like a pirate if my memory serves me). Nina looked amazing. She had bright red hair dye running out of her hair and into the raft. It looked like someone failed to decapitate her, but only by a little. More dye was streaming from her head every time Pete would squirt her from poolside with his super soaker. I couldn’t think of anything to say so I just relaxed and enjoyed watching her bounce around to avoid his random blasts. I didn’t end up seeing much more of the trio that weekend, but I did manage to meet both Nina and Duckie again last weekend. We had a blast hanging out together. I’ll save the goings-on of that weekend for a future post.
WildPoni - This is the first person I met when Ellie and I arrived at camp. From the first time I saw her I knew that we had a connection, but I thought it was just my general excitement over camp and let it pass the first few times I saw her. On Sunday night, however, Ellie and I headed over to a social event called “Cigars and Chocolate”. She arrived a few minutes later, and I was immediately drawn to her. Not just because she was wearing only leather shorts and a leather strap under her bare breasts, but because I felt like serving her. What better place than a chocolate tasting to serve a woman. I fed her chocolate after chocolate and tried to be as charming as I could. We found one chocolate that I hadn’t tried yet. After she had a bit she offered me the other half from her lips. I took it greedily. The next chocolate brought our lips together, and the third ended in a passionate kiss. I wanted to get down on my knees and worship her body, so I did, a little. But I want to do it again, better.
Drew, Bear, Pink Pet, Tatsumi, Elle Emenope, Den, Lori, Chris! - Oh my god! Too much awesome, too little time.
My entire freaking cabin full of sexy, awesome people - Wendy Blackheart, Ivy, Don, Viviane, Tilda, Subtle, Mina Meow. I want to see/kiss/fondle all of you. Soon! If not at Winter Fire then there is always next year’s Summer Camp.
The lesson I learned from Sex Camp 2008: If you aren’t sure what is permissible, just ask. Don’t be afraid of rejection. And, as Nina just pointed out to me, “The only dumb question is the one left unasked.”
Whew. Ellie and I just got back in town and I couldn’t wait a moment to tell a couple of my friends about what happened over the weekend.
Jay: I had a fun threesome last night.
Ariel: I want details.
Ariel: No
Ariel: I need details.
Jay: lol, at least you know the difference.
Jay: Well, there is a great couple that I have been talking to for quite a while now. We used to chat on webcam all the time, so we all knew each other pretty well. We were always flirty, but that was about it.
Jay: They finally had some time off this weekend and wanted to visit us at our place, but we were going to Charlotte. So they decided to come to the vendor’s fair and meet us there.
Jay: They got a really nice suite and invited us to come spend the night with them.
Jay: After a few hours of chatting and playing sex toy show and tell Ellie started getting sleepy.
Jay: There wasn’t enough room on the fold-out couch for all of us, so I joined them in their king sized bed for cuddles while Ellie got some sleep.
Jay: We all cuddled and talked for a couple of hours, and then Liz started kissing her boyfriend in a really provocative way.
Jay: She asked him if he was okay and he said yes, so she turned over and kissed me.
Ariel: P.S. Michael also says he wants to know the details ;)
Jay: lol, I guess I’ll have to make this into a post then.
Jay: She kept going back and forth between making out with him and making out with me.
Jay: After a half dozen times I realized that he and I were both slowly climbing on top of her.
Jay: So instead of kissing her I started kissing him. And, oh my god, he had the most lovely moist, soft lips.
Jay: It wasn’t too much longer until Liz had come out of all of her clothes.
Jay: We were both focused on her, but every once in a while we’d pause to make-out with each other.
Jay: She was in heaven as the two of us lavished attention on her nipples together or one of us massaged her back as the other kissed her lips.
Jay: While Alex was making out with her at one point I started fingering Liz.
Ariel: What am I doing in this line in Atlanta waiting for gas? I should be in line for that! ;)
Jay: Her juices smelled so good that I had to put my mouth on her swollen clit while I finger fucked her.
Jay: Within a few minutes she was reaching a shuddering orgasm, and then she was spent.
Jay: I had plans for Alex, though, so it wasn’t an issue.
Jay: I kissed Alex’s lips for a moment and then making my way down his body while Liz sucked my cock.
Jay: When I got down to his waist he started moaning and his cock started jumping.
Jay: Liz started kissing him and I teased his cock.
Jay: I don’t think he had ever been with a man before, but didn’t seem to have any problems kissing and touching me.
Jay: I started working some magic on his cock to try to get it as hard as I could.
Ariel: < -- still eagerly reading
Jay: I was taking his whole cock into my mouth and bouncing his balls in my left hand.
Jay: Only a short moment later I heard him whisper to Liz "This is the most awesome thing, ever."
Jay: I’m still not sure if it was my skill or the fact that he had two people’s undivided sexual attention.
Jay: I started using both hands to play with his hard cock while kissing Liz.
Jay: He reached out and started groping my cock while I jerked him to orgasm.
Jay: His come sprayed right up onto his chest and onto Lizs breasts too. I must have had the proudest smile on my face.
Jay: Liz and I went to the bathroom and cleaned off and she grabbed Alex a towel so he didn't have to get up.
Jay: Liz assured me that it was my turn next, but I shyly bowed out telling them "another time", so that I could go sleep with Ellie.
Jay: I had an amazing time.
Ariel: Wow
Ariel: Just
Ariel: Wow
Ariel: We're both all giddy after reading that.
Michael: By giddy she means we are squirming in our seats and flushed.
Liz wowed me with her communication this weekend. The way she checked in with Alex was so nice and gentle. Her voice and her moans so soft. Alex wore such an amazing expression during most of the encounter that I can’t quite describe. When either I or Liz kissed him his eyes glazed over like he was half way in a dream. The two of them had a way of making both Ellie and I feel at ease and among friends.
When Ellie and I first got started in kink and BDSM communities we were blown away by the inclusiveness and the lack of judgment that we found.
There is a natural fear of rejection that one probably feels when presenting themselves in front of the local kink group for the first time. I was lucky that the guy in charge of orientation was one of my co-workers, but I imagine that not everyone has that experience.
Dark Odyssey Summer Camp took the feeling of being a part of a big kinky family several steps further for me.
The community system was quite nice. The “pre-camp” online community is a fully functioning personals site where you can contact potential play partners and arrange tentative “dates”. I felt like I was making good use of the site even though none of the “talk” turned into “action” when we got there, it was well worth the time investment simply because I felt more comfortable when we arrived. I recognized several dozen attendees by their profile pictures alone which set me more at-ease.
—
When Ellie and I arrived we met a couple at the gates (I won’t name names, of course). Both of them were casually dressed, but I was immediately impressed by their friendliness (and the woman’s cleavage which I was lucky to see a lot more of throughout the weekend).
We set up the air mattress (kindly loaned to us by a local kink friend) and proceeded to christen the room with a delicious fuck. Having our naked cabin-mates (who we hadn’t even met by name yet) coming through the cabin to set up their spaces only turned us on more.
Walking around camp to get our bearings afterwards we checked out the dungeon/barn and the mess hall. On the way back to the cabin a man flagged us down and said, “Are you Ellie?” while walking timidly toward us.
Before Ellie could say another word he had his answer in his mind and continued, “I recognized your voice, I’m a huge fan of your podcast!” She was flattered and I’m pretty sure it was only the first of a couple dozen times she blushed that weekend.
Attending our first class I met my first Sex Camp crush. A beautiful young girl with the most precious voice told Ellie that she reads her blog after we introduced ourselves. My shyness took over, though. The entire weekend the most I could muster when I saw her was to make eye contact with her. It was worth the effort just to catch a glimpse of her pretty smile.
Shyness is nice and
Shyness can stop you
From doing all the things in life
You’d like to
Here’s the thing about camp. It doesn’t matter what kind of relationship you are in when you come to DO, you are going to have a dozen or more camp crushes. Resign yourself to it early and let the flirting begin.
Flirting was pretty much all I did, though.
My first DO was overwhelming. I wanted to go to two classes in each time slot so I had to make difficult choices about that several times a day. I chose a lot of “safe” classes, but learned a lot of really awesome stuff. Lolita Wolf’s “Kids Rule!” and Sarah Sloane’s “Service for the Novice Top” classes were great for Ellie and I. We learned a lot about ourselves and some minor hang-ups we still have about some of our play.
Bear’s “Theater Skills For Better Sex” was so much fun, and empowering. The class was only scheduled for 1.5 hours but I found myself wanting to spend the whole day talking with and learning with Bear (not to mention the making out that we had talked about on the message board).
By “safe” classes I meant only that I avoided some fire-play, new-age stuff, and hooks/needles.
Ellie and I co-topped a great guy named Neils for some light sensation play and orgasm control/denial. We feel like topping together as a couple will be a good way for us to play together and learn new skills together. Deciding on what skills we want to learn and who we want to mentor us is the hard part, though.
No regrets at all, it was the most amazing time.
—
But wait, there’s more!
I have a ton of school work to finish up, so I’m posting this part now to get it out of my head. Expect part 2 before the weekend!
Actually this little post is for anyone that likes being half-naked on a warm Thursday. I’m going to throw in a little splash of Ellie too, just on principle.
Ellie mentioned briefly over on her blog that we spent a night with Artemis Hunter and her amazing sadist-friend. She also mentioned the evening we spent at a demo followed by the most wonderful, laid-back play-party we’ve ever been to (not that we’ve been to many, yet).
The night spent with Artemis was extreme in a lot of ways (blowtorch, e-stim unit, violet wand), but the best thing about the entire weekend was how everyone made us feel welcome and desired.
Now, part of this feeling comes from us. We are in a very good, stable, loving place together and we’ve been very open with each other about what we want to do in play with each other and with new partners. However, the biggest kudos go to the wonderful group that put together the demo and those people that graciously invited us into their home with open arms.
…Where to start? I feel like starting at the end for mostly selfish reasons. First, I don’t want the post to be *too* long. Secondly, I had the most fun in the last 4 hours or so of the play-party. ;)
Artemis Hunter was definitely the guest of honor for the evening. We had arrived at the party a mere moment before she did. Things were tame. There was a very interesting conversation on the table about what it means in the “kink community” to have been properly apprenticed as a dominant. While that’s not my kink it was an intelligent discussion and I was pleased to be privy to it.
Artemis came in and the room got silent. She’s amazing in that she can hold people’s attention effortlessly. I know that it’s not without effort, she’s an amazing master of manipulation. It made me giddy just to be in her presence.
Off on a tangent there…
Artemis sat down in front of an overly excited, innocent looking (trust me, looks are deceiving) Maggie. Maggie asked in a church-mouse tiny voice, “Can I rub your feet?”, Artemis nodded.
I turned away to greet some newcomers before turning back to find Maggie’s mouth full of toes. She’s giggling and smiling in the seconds that it takes her to switch to the other foot. I leave the room to grab a drink, and come back to see Maggie is now shirtless practically gagging on Artemis’ lovely feet. I knew that it was going to be an amazing night as I watched the sexual energy in the room build and explode.
I retreated, feeling a little shy, to check out the dungeon. It was nice, very simple, but well stocked. There was a fantastic looking St. Andrew’s Cross, a lovely leather spanking bench, a medical examination table, and a piece of gym equipment (although the latter may have not been intended as BDSM equipment I can assure you that it was well loved).
There was a scene going on with a female dominant stripping her male slave and then slashing him repeatedly with a half-dozen implements of torture. I watched for a while noting her technique and then headed back toward the living room.
—
There’s more to come, I have just become really busy as of late :P
I’ve already shared two of the four “5 minute stories” that I wrote in Erotica Writing 101, but I skipped over two others. One was scrapped for being a poor idea. However, the other one was on the subject of the lovely lady that was sitting next to me (a.k.a. the real reason I got so shy). Over the last several weeks I’ve got to know her quite a bit better. I’ve attempted here to flesh out the modest paragraph I started the day we met.
—
She glides giddily toward the bed and bends over against it just as the hotel room door swings shut.
“You could have just told me what color they were.” I remark slyly.
She looks back at me over her shoulder and blushes.
My passion overtakes me, before she can rise I’m already beside her.
The first kiss lands softly on her neck. My hands dance across her soft shoulders and find their way into her long hair. I take a deep breath and inhale her sweet essence, smile into her deep eyes, and dive toward her lips. It satisfies me immensely to feel the goosebumps springing forth from the skin of her neck and shoulders as our lips meet.
I am overcome by the urge to explore her, from her wine-sweetened lips and tongue down to her sunkissed legs. Most of all I’m spellbound by how excited she is by my touch. I can feel her anticipation in every muscle I caress. Tightening, then slowly releasing. I want to calm, warm, and welcome her with every soothing stroke.
We contort our bodies so that our lips stay connected as we twist and recline on the bed. I close my eyes and see her the way I saw her for the first time less than a day ago.
Her long red hair was tied back. Her glasses and black skirt gave her a distinct “sexy librarian” look. When I saw her walking toward me my mind raced with things to say, but nothing came out. She began talking to me and my nervousness vanished as quickly as it appeared. We sat together and wrote together, but I found it extremely hard to concentrate on writing with this vision of beauty sitting so close to me that I could smell her.
That thought snaps me back to the present. That lovely redolence, like rose petals in a lavender bath, is strong even in this large room.
I take her glasses and mine and set them on the nightstand. I let our eyes meet again and she teases me with a kiss. I take her delicate wrist into my hand and force it onto the bed. Looking down at her body makes me marvel at the contrast from our original meeting.
Her hair is down now, flowing and airy. Her black blouse replaced by a corset cinched up so tight that I’m amazed she’s able to lay down at all without loosening or removing it.
She reaches up to kiss me and I allow her to have another taste. She tugs at my lip and squeezes it between her teeth. I break away from her lips momentarily and gaze down toward her breasts. She moves with grace and slips her free hand behind her back loosening her corset.
The corset slides down partially revealing a pinkish nipple surrounded my a mound of tempting light skin. My lips find her chin and then her neck. I’m drawn down her body by her luscious skin, but I dawdle at her neck kissing and biting. Savoring the little gasps she releases into my ear, and using them as a sort of sonar to detect just what arouses her the most.
—
Well, that’s a start. I have a feeling that I could spend a lot of time on this. But, the exciting conclusion will have to wait, for now.
Right when I was starting to think that Fetlife was a pretty awesome place the owner has come out of the closet, as a big asshole.
He asked a group on Fetlife if anyone wanted to be a “greeter” for the site. To be responsible for sending out an email or two to new users rather than a system generated message. We all know how much attention we pay to those.
Ellie, the outgoing and wonderful person she is, volunteered. The next day she received a message from the owner stating that he felt that there would be a conflict of interest between th duties of ambassador and the fact that she does phone sex. His exact phrase was “ethical dilemma”. He said that as the owner of the site he isn’t able to approach anyone on the site (??), and that if she messaged someone and they asked her to do a call with them she should turn them down.
I was reading through the (very funny) “Terms & Conditions” which has a 1% rule. According to John (the owner):
1% Of Your Action Belongs To Us
We have no clue how we are going to claim this but we want 1% of the action you are getting from this site. Yeah, you heard right. While we are working our asses off to grow FetLife you are getting action and we want 1% of it, damn it! We think it is only fair.
That could be taken any number of ways, but to me it sounds like he does want to dip into the honey pot.
Aside from all of that, he’s dealing with an active clientèle that is made up of regular users (with affiliate links right in their profiles), bloggers (with affiliate links on their linked pages), sex workers (pro doms, phone sex workers), and podcasters. The vast percentage of these users make *some* money by doing what they do. Isn’t it the dream of everyone to make money off of what they love? Is this akin to shitting where to live? No.
Does he think that Ellie is a predator, and that her only aim in an online community is to drag customers from it? Does he think that about everyone on the site, or just PSOs (phone sex operators) because he assumes that a PSO doesn’t enjoy her job or only does it for the money?
The fact is that Fetlife is a really good site right now. Most of the people on there are very friendly and open. We’re having good conversations and learning a lot about alternative lifestyles. Hopefully this was a case of him hitting send before thoroughly reading what he had written, and we can move forward from this having all gained a little knowledge from one another.
edit - Ellie received another email stating that the owner of the site had sent out similar requests/questions to other potential ambassadors. He also apologized that his original email could easily be interpreted negatively.
The future status of the seemingly hypocritical 1% Rule is still in question, though (if only by me and the lovely ladies that commented here).
